{"id":2388,"date":"2024-11-26T14:01:20","date_gmt":"2024-11-26T14:01:20","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.ecosocialist.scot\/?p=2388"},"modified":"2024-11-26T14:02:34","modified_gmt":"2024-11-26T14:02:34","slug":"progressing-by-grassroot-networks-an-interview-with-catherine-samary","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.ecosocialist.scot\/?p=2388","title":{"rendered":"Progressing by Grassroot Networks – An Interview with Catherine Samary"},"content":{"rendered":"
\n

Before we turn to the discussion of the war in Ukraine and prospects for left internationalism, let\u2019s talk about the recent developments in your home country. How do you analyse the current political situation in France and the role that left-wing politics might play in it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n

\u2014 Michel Barnier\u2019s new government combines two core elements: racism and attacks on social rights. The latter is evident in the ongoing parliamentary debates over the 2025 budget and social security funding. Marine Le Pen\u2019s National Rally (Rassemblement National) has played a key role in these discussions, not least due to the fact that no single party has managed to achieve a stable majority in the French parliament. Even though the result of the New Popular Front (Nouveau Front Populaire) in the recent legislative election, which followed the dissolution of the Assembly last June, was unexpectedly high \u2014 and most welcome \u2014 it is still only a minor and relative victory.<\/p>\n

This situation is unlikely to change unless the various forces within the New Popular Front come together, consolidate their victory, and start a large-scale mobilization. This could be achieved through the creation of local political alliances across the entire country that would be focused on concrete struggles. We should not forget that mass mobilizations against attacks on the social system are still possible \u2014 and so is the collapse of the government itself.<\/p>\n

Against all evidence, the government wants people to believe that it has not introduced an \u201causterity budget\u201d plan, but rather \u201ca budget [plan] to avoid austerity\u201d \u2014 at least, this is what the Minister of Finance Antoine Armand\u00a0declared<\/a>\u00a0on the 21st of October. National Assembly deputies have proposed over 3,500 amendments to this plan! And yet, disagreements between different political alliances in the parliament are obvious. At the moment, no single one of them has a stable majority \u2014 these political struggles are indicative of what awaits us during the 2027 presidential election. In the current situation, there is a strong chance that the government will once again resort to Article 49.3 of the Constitution to pass the budget without a parliamentary vote. Previously, this procedure enabled the French government under \u00c9lisabeth Borne to push through the pension reform bill. However, the decision to use it now would pose a risk of early collapse for the government both due to internal divisions among the ruling classes and the general unpopularity of these measures.<\/p>\n

And what better way is there to \u201cdivide and rule\u201d than by designating a scapegoat \u2014 immigrants? Val\u00e9rie P\u00e9cresse, who has held numerous high-level positions for different right-wing political organizations, has become an emblem of the vile demagoguery that drives much of today\u2019s right-wing factions. On the 14th of October, she had the audacity to declare: \u201cHow do you plan to explain to the French that you are going to ask for more sacrifices from them, to pay more taxes, to benefit from fewer and fewer public services, while allowing immigration-related expenses to keep rising?\u201d She added: \u201cWhen we are too generous, we end up attracting people we do not want to welcome.\u201d Minister of the Interior Bruno Retailleau\u00a0shares<\/a>\u00a0the same philosophy \u2014 his immigration bill is directly inspired by the National Rally\u2019s ideas. It is the duty of the left today to take a strong stance on this front as well and to stand firmly against all forms of racism.<\/p>\n

\u2014 During the elections this year some of the international issues \u2014 in particular, those related to the wars in Ukraine and Palestine \u2014 were included in the programmes of all political parties. Would you say that international issues are politically divisive in France? Are they an important electoral factor in national political life?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 I would answer \u201cyes\u201d to the first question, but for the second question I am inclined to say \u201cno.\u201d Political divisions on international issues have never played a central role in the electoral campaign or had any impact on its outcome. As I mentioned earlier, domestic issues have overwhelmingly dominated the political scene, especially in the wake of the crisis triggered by Emmanuel Macron\u2019s decision to call early elections. His choice to appoint Michel Barnier as Prime Minister in September \u2014 instead of\u00a0Lucie Castets<\/a>, the candidate proposed by the New Popular Front, which came first in the legislative elections \u2014 highlighted the focus on domestic issues even more prominently. Macron\u2019s choice had little to do with international matters: it was strictly about pushing forward his social agenda.<\/p>\n

It is also worth noting that parliamentary decisions about the sums allocated to Ukraine were made back in March and did not generate much controversy during the elections. That being said, a lot of things regarding France\u2019s foreign policy are up for debate. The country\u2019s contributions to European and global aid packages to Ukraine are minimal. The current military budget is more allocated towards nuclear programs, furthering neocolonial interests in Africa (the \u201cFran\u00e7afrique\u201d policy), and military support for Israel, rather than towards Ukraine.\u00a0[1<\/a>]<\/span>\u00a0The lack of real debate on these issues does not imply that they are of secondary importance; rather, it reflects the poor state of parliamentary \u201cdemocracy\u201d and the limited transparency around France\u2019s foreign policy.<\/p>\n

\u2014 And internally, within political organizations?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 I am not the best person to give a detailed answer here, as I don\u2019t closely follow the inner workings of every party across the spectrum. However, what I can say at the very least is that their \u201cpolitical life\u201d lacks democratic transparency. Most of the time, the only thing we see are public \u201cpositions\u201d taken by party leaders \u2014 and these sometimes shift in noticeable, even awkward ways.<\/p>\n

This happened with the right-wing approach to the war in Ukraine. After the invasion, which was widely recognized as an act of aggression, Marine Le Pen, as a representative of the National Rally, had to readjust her public position to distance herself from Vladimir Putin. Macron had to do the same, although this shift did not result from internal debates among his supporters or within his party Renaissance (RE). The same goes for his recent, cautious criticism of Israel\u2019s politics in Gaza and his call to recognize the rights of the Palestinians. Yet, overall, there is a consensus among the right on demonizing so-called \u201cIslamo-leftism\u201d as a tactic to discredit any form of support for Palestine.<\/p>\n

As for the left-wing parties \u2014 from the communists and socialists to La France Insoumise (FI) \u2014 there are, of course, political disagreements on various international issues, including ongoing military conflicts, both between the parties and within them. Some people on the radical left, in France and abroad, frame the Russo-Ukrainian war as a clash between NATO (the United States, essentially) and Russia \u2014 thus overlooking Ukraine itself. They see it through the \u201cmain enemy\u201d lens and reduce the equation to a single \u201cimperialist enemy\u201d \u2014 in particular, the United States and NATO. As Gilbert Achcar puts it, this view might eventually come down to the following conclusion: \u201cThe enemy of my (main) enemy is my friend.\u201d This explains Jean-Luc M\u00e9lenchon\u2019s (leader of La France Insoumise) once somewhat sympathetic stance toward Putin compared, for instance, to Rapha\u00ebl Glucksmann\u2019s active campaign against Kremlin\u2019s politics in his role as a socialist deputy in the European Parliament.<\/p>\n

Given this range of political sentiments and positions within the parties composing the New Popular Front, it was reassuring to see straightforward, positive statements on foreign policy in their last program. They have taken a firm stance on \u201cpromoting peace in Ukraine,\u201d specifically by \u201cunwaveringly defending Ukraine\u2019s sovereignty\u201d through arms deliveries and asset seizures from Russian oligarchs. As far as Gaza is concerned, the New Popular Front has called for \u201can immediate ceasefire\u201d and a \u201cjust and lasting peace,\u201d condemning the \u201ccomplicit support\u201d of the French government for Benjamin Netanyahu\u2019s policies. The program demands effective sanctions against Israel, along with official recognition of the state of Palestine in line with the United Nations resolutions. However, while these positions are important and encouraging, we have not seen much of a real political \u201cbattle\u201d in the parliament or during the elections to make these statements more concrete.<\/p>\n

\u2014 What do you think about the political situation in France in the aftermath of the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022? What discussions took place within your organization, the New Anticapitalist Party?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 The invasion was certainly a major political shock that raised serious questions across all political organizations. As the war continued, these questions have only deepened, and no clear consensus has emerged. Many pre-war conceptions continue to be actively debated \u2014 though, unfortunately, many of these views have not been updated. Even the basic condemnation of the Russian aggression has not led to the development of a unified position and approach across the political spectrum, especially regarding NATO or the European Union\u2019s planned expansions to Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, and the Western Balkans.<\/p>\n

Before the invasion, Macron (much like Putin!) had considered NATO a \u201cbrain-dead\u201d organization. His conclusion was based on NATO\u2019s withdrawal from Afghanistan as well as internal disagreements among member countries regarding Russia and its energy resources. Ironically, the war has led to NATO\u2019s expansion, harsher sanctions against Russia, and the legitimization of increased military budgets. At the same time, support for Ukraine has been hypocritically instrumentalized. As I said, a large share of the military budget in France (and in the United States, for that matter) is not actually directed toward Ukraine. There is also significant uncertainty around the United States\u2019 concrete international commitments, which Macron sees as an opportunity to promote France\u2019s arms industry in Europe and beyond. However, all this is not up for debate among the right.<\/p>\n

On the left, including the New Anticapitalist Party (NPA), there has been limited debate around what Achcar calls the \u201cNew Cold War,\u201d even though it is a necessary discussion. The prevailing logic within the NPA has been the following: even without a clear understanding of the rapidly changing world around us, without understanding the connections between various crises, and lacking viable socialist, anti-capitalist alternatives at national, European, and global levels, we can still fight for grassroots internationalism grounded in the defense of universal equal rights. Echoing our comrades from Sotsialnyi Rukh (Social Movement) in Ukraine, we declared: \u201cFrom Ukraine to Palestine, occupation is a crime!\u201d We viewed and condemned the war in Ukraine as an aggression by Putin\u2019s Russia against Ukraine\u2019s very right to exist. We stand with our comrades from political organizations and labor unions in Russia and Ukraine, while maintaining independence from \u201cour national governments\u201d and disapproving of their neoliberal practices. We oppose Russian imperialism, shaped \u2014 among other things \u2014 by czarist and Stalinist legacies, while affirming our stance against \u201call imperialisms.\u201d We have also called for Ukraine\u2019s debt to be canceled and, alongside our Ukrainian comrades, we have condemned any attempt by Western powers or the Zelensky government to exploit Ukrainian resistance against the Russian aggression as a pretext for imposing anti-social policies.<\/p>\n

Practically, the NPA has supported Ukraine\u2019s resistance, both armed and unarmed. We have recognized its legitimate right to request weapons (from those who manufacture them) for self-defense. Since March 2022, we have been involved in the European Network in Solidarity with Ukraine and Against the War (ENSU), where we remain active both at the European level and through its French branch, working alongside progressive Ukrainian groups.<\/p>\n

This does not mean there has been no debate or disagreement. While all of us agree on Ukraine\u2019s right to request weapons for self-defense, several questions and dissensions emerged immediately: Is it politically justifiable for an anti-capitalist organization like ours to request arms from \u201cour own bourgeoisie\u201d and for a bourgeois government? Is it practically possible to call for military aid while also opposing militarism and military alliances like NATO?<\/p>\n

Personally, I answered \u201cyes\u201d to both questions, as did the majority of the NPA members. Alongside other comrades, I represent the NPA within ENSU and work directly with leftist, feminist, and student groups in Ukraine engaged in multiple struggles. But this activism requires us to differentiate our position from both \u201cmilitarist\u201d attitudes and \u201cabstract pacifism.\u201d This is achievable by \u201cpoliticizing\u201d the arms debate, which entails nationalizing the arms industry so that military budgets and the use of weapons become an object of political debate.<\/p>\n

To summarize: \u201cyes\u201d to arms delivery to Ukraine in solidarity; \u201cno\u201d to sales to dictatorships and oppressive regimes like Israel! ENSU recently discussed and adopted a statement on this issue, which will soon be available on its website.<\/p>\n

\u2014 And what about Emmanuel Macron\u2019s statements regarding the potential deployment of French troops in Ukraine?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 Macron himself admitted there was \u201cno consensus\u201d \u2014 and that is an understatement \u2014 on this idea. His suggestion was met with criticism, with many seeing it as dangerously escalatory, if not reckless. Still, Macron maintained that \u201cin the face of a regime that excludes nothing, we must exclude nothing ourselves.\u201d However, critics pointed out the discrepancy between Macron\u2019s \u201ccommitment\u201d to helping Ukraine and the limited aid that France has actually provided so far. They also highlighted the difference between \u201cdeploying troops,\u201d which implies co-belligerency, and sending military personnel and technicians for support tasks, like managing foreign-supplied military equipment. Macron\u2019s other semantic improvisations were heavily criticized as well, for example his statement that France and the European Union were entering a \u201cwar economy.\u201d This notion doesn\u2019t match reality, as current production systems haven\u2019t undergone any such transformation.<\/p>\n

As I mentioned earlier, another crucial issue is the need to politicize and increase transparency around military budgets. This requires analyzing what the military industry is really producing and sending to Ukraine, alongside the financial and material aid needed to support Ukraine\u2019s actual \u201cwar economy.\u201d If Ukraine\u2019s economy remains state-run and dependent on Western aid tied to neoliberal conditions, it is bound to fail. This is why I support the \u201cinternal\u201d strategy of the Ukrainian leftist organization Sotsialnyi Rukh, which criticizes the current trajectory of Zelensky\u2019s government and instead prioritizes the popular and democratic resources of independent Ukraine itself.<\/p>\n

\u2014 How have people reacted to Vladimir Putin\u2019s repeated nuclear threats?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 Reactions have been mixed and have changed over time. Putin clearly knows that he is spreading fear this is exactly what he wants \u2014 and we cannot exclude the risk of a catastrophe. However, it is hard to imagine what \u201ceffective\u201d use of nuclear weapons could look like from Putin\u2019s perspective. So far, each of his \u201cred lines\u201d has shifted back in response to the Ukrainian military operations, including those on Russian territories, without triggering the nuclear retaliation he promised. Another reassuring factor has been China\u2019s explicit veto against any use of nuclear weapons by its Russian ally.<\/p>\n

Still, some \u201cpacifists\u201d continue to instrumentalize the fear of nuclear escalation as an argument against sending more weapons to Ukraine to avoid further \u201cprovoking\u201d Putin!<\/p>\n

\u2014 Are there ongoing discussions and debates in activist circles about France\u2019s nuclear deterrent and its possible strategic uses?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 No, these debates are not \u2014 yet \u2014 taking place among activists, who are not necessarily in a position to have such discussions. There is justified political distrust toward our government, especially given France\u2019s post- and neo-colonial history. Both this distrust and our necessary independence from the government make it hard to imagine how a radical, anti-capitalist organization like ours would ask Macron to use \u201chis bomb\u201d in the name of vaguely defined common interests. Journalists have questioned Macron about the French nuclear deterrent in a context of growing uncertainties surrounding the United States\u2019 commitments: while he has not \u201cruled out\u201d a form of European \u201cmutualization\u201d of France\u2019s nuclear arsenal, he has insisted that command would remain under French control.<\/p>\n

However, current discussions about \u201csecurity\u201d should extend far beyond nuclear deterrence. For instance: How should the military and police forces evolve? How can we exercise civilian, democratic control over their actions? The growing influence of far-right ideas within the French police force is particularly alarming. Likewise, the European left urgently needs to consider what a progressive, \u201calter-globalist\u201d approach to \u201cEuropean defense\u201d might look like. The ongoing crisis in global and European social forums has caused significant delay in this area, but there are efforts underway to revive a \u201cEuropean alternative public sphere.\u201d This movement is essential, and we must support it to address these multidimensional \u201csecurity\u201d issues. I am a participant of a newly formed working group in France comprising left-wing \u201calter-globalist\u201d activists working on these questions and committed to defending equal social and political rights \u2014 both individual, collective, and across national borders.<\/p>\n

\u2014 Security issues do not solely concern international relations: the ultra-right, for instance, resort to threats, \u201cattacks on the Arabs,\u201d and even murders. What options does the left have to counter the rise of the far-right, which is one of this decade\u2019s most serious challenges?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 Here too, it is crucial to examine how such factors as state structures of \u201clegal violence,\u201d the justice system, and the rise of fascist private militias interact in each country. Much depends on who is in power and the nature of current social struggles. Historically \u2014 and likely in the future \u2014 the key factor has been the ability of mass organizations, involving both men and women, to self-organize and unite in self-defense while conducting information and denunciation campaigns in the media. This topic is a central point of discussion within the \u201cEuropean alternative political space\u201d that is currently being (re)built.<\/p>\n

\u2014 What does it mean for the contemporary left to engage in international politics?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2014 Environmental threats are just as serious as attacks on social rights, with the poor being the most affected. The \u201ccontemporary left\u201d is diverse and currently grappling with issues that weaken its capacity to respond to urgent problems. These issues stem from a series of crises: the crisis of countries that once pursued a socialist project \u2014 if not a reality \u2014 and those who identified with it, be that in Europe, China, or Cuba; the crisis of social-democratic movements, which have largely given up on transforming capitalist societies; and the crisis within the radical left, which often struggles, for diverse reasons, to offer viable alternatives to the system it criticizes and sometimes indulges in dogmatic, sectarian \u201cvanguard\u201d positions.<\/p>\n

These widespread crises have also impacted the global and continental social forums working to invent new transnational modes of operation and action in a rapidly changing world-system. All these difficulties have led to significant political concessions and, at times, acceptance of a \u201clesser evil\u201d logic. However, valuable assets persist across all the leftist currents I mentioned and beyond. From the radical left to the new social, feminist, eco-socialist, and antiracist movements, there is a wealth of accumulated experience and past struggles. While criticizing \u201cvanguardism\u201d is important when it attempts to substitute itself for social movements, it is equally important to reinforce pluralistic, democratic, international cooperation among anti-capitalist groups. These connections are currently limited, but they are vital for achieving a broad, pluralistic understanding of past challenges and mistakes we made.<\/p>\n

It is crucial to progress forward by building strong grassroot international networks that focus on concrete issues. The European Network in Solidarity with Ukraine and the\u00a0BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions)<\/a>\u00a0campaign in support of the Palestinian cause demonstrate that this is possible. Likewise, we need campaigns that address feminist, anti-racist, social justice, and environmental issues, which are essential to reestablishing a multi-issue, alternative space for rethinking globalization. This vision is taking shape in Europe, and while there is no magic solution, it is clear that failing to move in this direction will only leave us vulnerable to the rising threat of the far-right.<\/p>\n

20 November 2024<\/i><\/p>\n

Source:\u00a0Posle Media<\/strong><\/a>.<\/i><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

Catherine Samary (http:\/\/csamary.fr<\/a>) is a feminist and alterglobalist economist and a leading member of the Fourth International. She has done extensive research on the former socialist and Yugoslav experiences and European systemic transformations.<\/p>\n

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Before we turn to the discussion of the war in Ukraine and prospects for left…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":14,"featured_media":2389,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_exactmetrics_skip_tracking":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_active":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_note":"","_exactmetrics_sitenote_category":0,"_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[163,3,155,164],"tags":[67,54,39,72],"class_list":["post-2388","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-france","category-international-news","category-palestine","category-ukraine","tag-france","tag-international-politics","tag-palestine","tag-ukraine"],"yoast_head":"\nProgressing by Grassroot Networks - An Interview with Catherine Samary - ecosocialist.scot<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ecosocialist.scot\/?p=2388\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_GB\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Progressing by Grassroot Networks - 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